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I made a little concept of a dwarven city (Sarin's overlook or something else). Please excuse my drawing skills

edit: attached a higher contrast version of it, so you can actually see what i've drawn

Sweet drawing.

Three remarks:

1) central citadel is a bit towering.  From the top-down perspective, this rarely looks good, so we want keep a greater variety.  While it should be the tallest, it shouldn't be more than 30% taller than the second tallest structure (just a rough number).  Similarly, a lot of the outlying structures a bit uniform in size, as are the walls and turrets.

2) keep in mind that in peace time, those walls double as highways.  More of them, more gates, and more overpasses.  Smaller roads, but more of them.  Think of a race that overbuilds in a very tight space, and does so in 3D.  I know I'm being specific, but this is part of the functionality of the dwarf base.  It's completely overbuilt, and the strategies used in battles that take place throughout it will reflect that.

3) cool environment, nice and claustrophobic like any dwarf would want.  You got the atmosphere right!

Yes the citadel is indeed a bit large. In fact I meant to make the tower just below it the citadel (I drew it first), but then when I started to put buildings around it it became too small. I also forgot to put it "in" the mountain, as the new citadel is. Because I was drawing with a ballpoint pen, I couldn't correct anything

I see about the overbuilding effect. We could accomplish that by making the walls higher and broader and integrating the adjacent buildings with them (in fact, have buildings inside the wall). Then bringing the outer wall a bit inwards (or add another wall in the middle) and make it higher so it can have overpasses to the inner wall.

Fact is that while I can have great pictures in my head, it's a bit hard to put them on paper

Maybe I'll try again later, taking more time and using decent drawing materials.

ps. I might add that I don't find the name "Sarin's overlook" quite...inspiring.

Would you mind if I give concept drawing the dwarves structures a shot?

Solinx

Of course! Didn't know you could draw.
Then again, as you saw that's not an absolute requirement

Haha

I draw now and then. Wouldn't say I'm really good at it.

Solinx

I will say that I've determined that Sarin's Overlook should be a location of a major battle in the story. At this point, the mutual devastation of Balkurn and Nisyrra at each other's hands seems to be a necessary plot device in order to centralize the conflict in the lands of Tharwain.

I know what you mean about having the image in your head, but not being able to put it down on paper.  I, too, suffer from this curse <_<

Alright, a major battle. Sounds cool
The history you wrote for Barkurn already mentioned a big battle at Sarin's Overlook when Barkurn decided to rebel. Well, from what I understand it didn't really come to a real battle, but both sides were prepared for one. You mentioned catapults and advantagepoints for archers/rockthrowers, as well as secret passageways earlier on.

So far I have part of a top down 2D view on the city layout. Before I go with that I'd appreciate some feedback. Minor setback is that was where we found out our scanner doesn't like vista I'll see if I can fix that issue tomorrow.

Solinx

Top down blueprint of the city and surrounding area - THAT is something I could do.  When I get the time.  We're talking one amazing city.

It's one of four major areas that I want to personally design, the others being the Garden of Heroes, Naustoros, and the Obfuscated Isles.  The Obfuscated Isles haven't been introduced yet (as you might expect, not many people get a clear look at them anyways), while Garden of Heroes and Naustoros were both introduced in history part II.

If you could draw a layout, that would be great. Main reason I wanted that out first is to be sure it's something you can recognise as Sarin's overlook.
If not, well, it could always be another dwarven city.

I've also done some basic close up 3D work... it looks decent enough, but I messed up the proportions of the buildings compared to the size of the city.
When I get back from uni I'll see about scanning and redrawing the 3D one.

Solinx

I've been doing some doodling on paper for Sarin's Overlook on the bus.  Naturally (like any RTS representation of a city) it's meant to be an abstraction, what I draw much smaller than it would be in 'reality'.  The Sarin's Overlook in concept is a metropolis, but size-wise we'll compact it so it's manageable (if still massive) as a mission setting.

Well, I don't really follow you on what you want, but we'll see when the images turn up
Btw. I've given up on the getting the scanners to work. I think one is actually broken :\
Tomorrow I'll try to redraw it digitally using my bro's pentablet.

Solinx

Don't worry about my preconceptions.  Go ahead with what you have in mind.

Whoohoo! One scanner works! Don't know how but I don't care as long as it keeps working

Here is the sort of layout I had in mind for dwarven a dwarven city. Turned it into a negative to make the lines stand out more.

As you can see, I tried to mimic some of the setting 2play pictured.

Edit:
To give a short description of a few main points:
- The flowing lines are the mountains.
- The two circular shaped structures are the citadel to the top left and the greenhouse tower to the top right. (Which might need to be made larger)
- There are three big walls, which are not directly connected with eachother.

Hmm... I'll go about editing the image further, to make it clear to you what is what. I was a bit enthousiastic about having the scanner working

The red lines in the above layout indicate the field of view for this basic 3D image:

Like I said, rethinking the size of the city, these doors, etc. are too large.

Solinx

I like both your drawings.  The one thing I'm concerned about is that the "helm's deep" design of building into a mountain alcove may be too much of an idealization for all major citadels (although it would certainly exist in some instances).  I think the acropolis, building at the top of a steep hill, would also make for a pretty awesome fortress, and certainly be representative of a large proportion of dwarven cities.

Very nice stuff there. I really like the Helm's Deepish idea. Sure, it's an idealization, but in my opinion this city should be the the ideal fortress.

When I find some time I'll try turn these new ideas into a better drawing.

Yeah, I didn't think about Helm's deep when I drew it, but it certainly has the style.
It's not like I pictured this as the average positioning of all dwarven citadels, but I did picture Sarin's Overlook this way.

From the history part IV I understood the Balkurn numbers were far fewer than those of Hablith when the Hablith came to Sarin's Overlook. And that Balkurn had advantagepoints from the the surrounding mountains, from which they could shoot arrows at the Hablith. These Hablith shouldn't be too far from the citadel, seeing as they attacked it with their own bowmen, and Balkurn could return fire with catapults.
Now comes an essential part I should have added in the short description list. Both the outer wall and the lower part of the Y split wall on the left would not be there at the time of that siege. Nor would the greenhouse. Afterall, the city grew after the siege and the greenhouse had yet to be invented.
This would give the Balkurn both at the right and left side the ability to position archers to attack the Hablith.

I think the acropolis, building at the top of a steep hill, would also make for a pretty awesome fortress, and certainly be representative of a large proportion of dwarven cities.

Another ideal location, but all good citadels are located at somewhat ideal strategic positions, either to give itself a strong position, or to keep watch over certain lands.

BTW: For some reason the images don't show for me anymore :S Edit: Those of 2play do, mine don't.

Solinx

Can you explain what the greenhouse is? I'm quite sure it's not a rectangular glass building with a triangle roof and artifical heating

[greenhouse]

It was near the end of the time of pandemonium that a final tilt in Balkurn's favour would drive the foreign invaders from its lands.  One of its most brilliant engineers, Ayuth Camirn, had devised plans for a great greenhouse, a tower which would rise over the rest of the citadel.  Through mirrors and refraction it would focus the light of even the high mountains at all times of the day into its chambers where it would grow foodstuffs.  By spreading the greenhouses throughout their cities, Balkurn was the first of the dwarven nations in countless generations to feast.  Their numbers swelled, and in thirty years when their military felt this boon, so a great offensive was made.

From History Part IV

Solinx

Ah ok. Well you can't blame me for not remembering..Darvin has been so enthusiastic in writing a lot of story

I won't blame you in any way. He's written so much, I prolly still haven't read all of it.

Solinx

Here are two more concepts.

First a street in the city. The left is the outer wall (inside the second wall, things would be denser)

Second, a part of the outer wall and the main gate. I will add more stuff behind it later.

Both are great. The street is really how I pictured it to be. Hadn't thought about the main gate yet but that looks very good

Solinx

Definitely awesome!

While 2play moved to more closeup 3D picturing, I continued working with turning the layout into 3D.

First step was to put some colour into the topdown view:

You can laugh at the result, but at least it made the following step a lot easier:

I'll start by saying it's not finished. Obviously the mountains are missing, as well as that everything is still in a basic cubic form. Further both the left and right part could use some more buildings. The walkways I drew are flat, for now. I think we all agree 2play's walkway looks much better , only this drawing was hard enough with just flat walkways.

The next step will be the top layer with the mountains.

Solinx

That looks awsome.. cant wait for the finished one... better yet... cant wait to see that baby in full 3d... or ingame

Thanks

Well, yesterday I started on the mountains. First image with colour I did in many years.

While uploading I noticed it does need a few strokes of black at the ridge to make it clear where exactly the ridge is

Solinx

arrgh.. i always ruin pics by coloring.... envy!

Why do you think I scanned it before putting any colour on it

Solinx

With the Netherlands largely covered in white, it struck me; would it be interesting to make the dwarves a "winter people", and put their lands full of snow?

In the winter months, yes.  Of course, even the distant north has its summers.

Of course, even the distant north has its summers.

in the lower valleys yes, where they are still colder than average. the higher mountain areas would be constantly covered in snow and it's cities specially adapted to the cold environment

If it's covered in snow year-round, that's called a glacier.  You can't make a foundation in a glacier, hence you actually cant build on them.  In theory you might be able to, but one warm summer and your whole structure would come toppling down because the ground you built it on literally melted away.  Building around glaciers and under glaciers is perfectly fine (free aqueduct in the summer, even better!) but building on or in them just isn't feasible.  Hmmm... INSIDE a glacier, now that sounds rather cool (both literally and metaphorically), although I suspect the whole thing would collapse around you eventually.

ok then, i suppose they'll need some snow free periods around the big cities. a glacier would be a really cool location for some super-hidden refuge though

This is my view of a dwarven city.
I know that you can't see a lot of thing, and can't understand everthing, the drawing is not well made. But here are my ideas:
- Outside it's essentially mines area (on the left and on the right)
- Oustide there are some houses, but always near rocks and rocky slopes
- In front of the main entrance there is a big fountain, it's a beautiful place
- The main galleires are inside the mountain
- The walls are carved into the rock
- Inside the city, there is a big hydrolic system, all the mecanic systems work with hydrolic power

Oh and I made something in 3D, to show you a bit my architecture ideas

looks good, i really like the hydraulic systems concept . i also feel the city should kind of continue inside the mountain. be careful with the architecure though, it shouldn't be too LOTR-ish

anyway, i did some drawing on my vacation, i'll put it up later

These are indeed looking good.

2play, I'm interested to what you've drawn on your vacation. I really liked the street and citywall you've already shown.

For those interested, my own drawing has come to a halt due to being busy with a lot of other things and some personal events. Perhaps Ill get back to it later.

Solinx

2play, I'm interested to what you've drawn on your vacation. I really liked the street and citywall you've already shown.

The port city, which I've posted some weeks ago

I've sometimes wanted to draw something in past weeks, but then I decided to spend time on Victory/Dathon instead, because we'll never get anywhere if I don't.

Way back in the beginning I made this post:
http://www.openwarengine.org/forum/index.php/topic,331.msg2235.html#msg2235

In there, we're talking about the style of a dwarf city. I personally like the idea of the "city of the future" with connected buildings, walkways, everything connected, etc. When I said this I was thinking of the city in Lego Cybermaster.
Now, finally, I've managed to put video from that "game" on UPipe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXW1HQ7a2oA

So yeah, that's what I have in mind, but in a less science-fiction and more fantasy style of course.